Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

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Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:56 pm

I am posting this in an effort to provide some factual information on the topic of 'EpicHUB DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV'.

And in reference to this question in a previous thread:
"Has anyone compared a shadowplay recording side by side to a spectator recording or a demo? These are important things to consider and look into before even considering anything as proof."

If anyone has a suggestion to put these two point of views side by side synchronized or can do it if I provide the MP4's, let me know, it would be helpful.

For now - I have uploaded the two POV's onto YouTube, there would be minimal lag as it's just me and bots on that server.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY6EByCLm-Q
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby reflex » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:37 pm

Perfect video that goes to show you how inaccurate the current spectator/replay system is. Further discussion: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/sho ... impressive

Also, this witch hunt is getting boring and needs to stop. RoOkIe doesn't fucking cheat and anybody that thinks otherwise is bad and should feel bad. The guy's been a top player while I was still playing low grav iCTF in 2k4 demo servers, and he's always remained consistent/active whenever there were significant updates to anti-cheat. To think someone with his prestige and LAN experience would need to cheat in a pre-alpha with 30-50 active players is a joke. Also, I've played many games (Call of Doody, Toxikk, etc.) with the guy hours after they got released and we always cleared out FFA servers no questions asked. I still remember how salty Fatal1ty got in Toxikk. It's not the best argument but I still felt the need to mention it because his aim transfers well in every FPS he touches. The dude is a gamer.

It's ridiculous to me that there's ignorant people out there that are attempting to destroy an honest player's reputation based on one clip in one of the most buggy spectator modes of all time. To those convinced he's guilty, ask yourself what's more likely: RoOkIe being reckless enough to tarnish his own reputation that he's built up for over a decade, or an extremely buggy pre-alpha having inconsistencies with its spectator mode (which have been documented on the official forums, see above). The answer should be obvious to anyone without an agenda.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:02 pm

While the topic of this thread is interesting, the overall content is not. Admins in ut4pugs keep talking about banning toxic behavior. While I think the term toxic is meaningless and too subjective, I would like to qualify spreading rumors, allegations, or accusations of another players legitimacy as toxic and should he considered for a timed ban response. There is absolutely no reason anyone should be spreading videos throughout the community trying to convince people that a certain player cheats. It should be reviewed solely by OW staff, league/ladder administrators, and server admins. They should then be able to decide autonomously on the matter. Riling up people in the community with regard to a possible cheater does one thing. Create a witch hunt. In my mind that weakens the argument that the player cheats because you're trying to herd people into believing a single outcome. Also, for that matter, ultimately the community does not decide if someone should be banned. Which is why privacy is important.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby PACO » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:37 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby Cookiemonster » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:30 pm

I'm just going to bump this thread again for everyone who is an idiot - you know who you are. Love, me.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:07 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby DREW-TANg » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:45 am

keep in mind that i'm not trying to imply that anyone is cheating...

and i'm aware that Demorec pov is obviously inaccurate for recreating the exact location of a player's crosshair...

but wouldn't instances such as locking onto fixed positions/pixels for extended periods of time still be sufficiently documented by Demorec? isn't the Y-axis the only thing skewed here?

can someone school me as to where i go wrong with my thinking?

also, i tried to line up the 2 clips and noticed that the game time itself is out of sync by about 1 second.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:28 am

I'm pressed for time but you're right Drew the mouse movement - while still off - correlates highly with the actual track of the mouse that the player made. What really throws it off is the constant sliding and the dodging while trying to track the same point of a player (in this case a bot standing completely still) however even in the clips of question the cross hair was consistently locking to the same spot on fast moving targets and the player himself was relatively stationary. In watching this comparison from Rookie I've realized the xhair is not only lower but also slightly to the left of where it's actually being aimed - what this means is that the xhair from those clips was actually locking onto the center of mass of an enemy model and not the outside hip. You are also correct that the game clock is off by one second.

I took the clips and slowed them down and while they seem to be pretty off to the naked eye it becomes obvious that the mouse movements themselves are still being recorded and are off at the same points by the same amounts.

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I would also like to add that personal insults are not constructive at this juncture. Just the fact that Rookie had to make a video trying to prove that the demo rec was inherently flawed is an acknowledgment that there was something that wasn't quite right about those clips. I would also like to throw in that this an apples to oranges comparison - the clips furnished were from a live stream and subsequently a replay and it also seems that there's a different F.O.V. being used and weapon show (which would make for even larger discrepancies). It also still does not explain the strange reaction to a player going up a lift.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:35 am

I remember a guy from UT3 a couple years ago named enoch84 who had this insane aim. Turns out he was trigger bitting and when we pointed out to him that he was cheating, he took the time to actually make videos proving he wasn't "cheating."

You shouldn't have to make forum posts proving that you don't cheat, because to be quite honest this makes you look worst and ruins your reputation among the community.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby reflex » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:06 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:12 pm

I'm just putting out there people are going to get the impression that the accused Cheater is trying to "cover up" his or her cheating by making videos and/or forum posts about it. A good player just walks away and keeps playing to prove people wrong.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby reflex » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:21 pm

Last edited by reflex on Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby PACO » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:23 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby rev » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:44 pm

This debate is easily solved: Throw him in a lake..if he floats he's a witch
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby legionz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:46 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby legionz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:47 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:56 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby reflex » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:59 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby detox » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:25 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:41 pm

Honestly the toxicity level of this community is irritating me. Stuff like this shouldn't even be happening but you know the paranoid jerks like myself are one of the ones who started this.

I'll begin playing regularly again when the bugs are fixed, and whenever we get proper tools to prevent cheating, that way we never see a thread like this again.
Last edited by nvz on Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:50 pm

This isn't a witch hunt by any means, rather a thorough breakdown of some admittedly odd clips. Everyone acknowledges that the spectator system is bugged but it's not as if it's not recording actual player inputs. Even in this video of the inconsitencies it's readily apparent that it's consistently inconsistent. The crosshair does correlate to the same positions in the demo as compared to the shadow play. It's a slippery slope to say that becaude the replays are slightly off that they should be discredited completely - in that case somebody could toggle to their hearts content and not have to worry about being caught because the standard has been set that any glaring questionable shots are easily disproven. I have tested it out some and have yet been unable to reproduce such rigid and mechanical movement and have also spectated Rookie and been unable to find the same isolated conditions. I don't think someone trying to defend themselves is an admission of guilt either but it's shoddy and questionable logic. What would sway me is if Rookie could recreate smooth aim that could stand the scrutiny of a slow motion breakdown and show where a spectator sees the linear aiming that's indicative of an external program.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby rev » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:56 pm

Ganja, this is bad man. I have never downloaded a cheat and know next to nothing about how cheats work. What i do know, is that when somebody who understands this arena puts forth an intelligent case for or against it uses technical terms that often go over my head. Your evidence here is that his mouse moves in a rigged linear fashion instead of smooth?

1). You're choosing to play in a pre alpha non anti cheat environment. If somebody did want to trigger their face off, the answer is yes, they can. It's actually worse than not having anti cheat because we don't even have demos.

2). If you're not ok with that, you should probably play a different video game for a while.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby Blimpo » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:16 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby PACO » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:27 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Viewing any demo unless it blatantly shows the physical HUD of a cheat being displayed does not count as empirical evidence, period.

Trying to view these demos and form any sort of conclusion based on that is absolutely ridiculous. It's like the scene in My Cousin Vinny where the 'eye witness' wasn't wearing glasses but magically identified the two defendants.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby beck » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:17 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:38 pm

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby Cookiemonster » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:12 pm

Making an obligatory, sarcastic and then realistic post in a run-on sentence 'I think because like other people have really good games sometimes that like a lot of the 'top' (lol yeh right plebs) players hack because they beat me down sometimes when everyone knows I'm a better player duhhh when in reality maybe some players just don't care to play at a top level in legendary UT4Pugs and have other stuff going on in the background which prevents them from being so l33t some of the time'
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby InfamousRaider » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:58 pm

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