Input/clarification sniper pugs

[rev]

With tam league on the way out and sniper league on the way in, there has been a huge uptick in the amount of sniper pugs. I'm curious if people have any input on whether or not clarification or changes are needed in regards to laming in sniper pugs. I think the primary reason enforcement and set rules was so important for ictf was because laming was so effective in ictf. I feel like it's not so effective in sactf and in addition since there are pups all over the map it can very often be argued that you're protecting a pup while waiting for it to spawn. Just curious what people think.

[clankiller]

with the amp being the decider in 98% of pugs i have played i will say i changed the way i run O to making sure the other team doesnt get it. me having amp isnt going to change the game all that much as i noemally last 5 secs with it anyway but it does stop the other team from getting it. i think having the amp stacked as much as it is will only do this so laming i dont know? its too stacked in my eyes. amp and keg is plenty also no shieldbelt as it only lights you up as having amp anyway.

yes i see the shield belt ok so its not invisable for sure...

CK..

[csnafk]

The entire 1 pug i played in so far if someone had amp total team fallback. Was no v fun :<

[rain]

I think it's a grey area but also very black & white. It makes complete sense to fallback and chase an amp, sure there are times you won't be able to do anything with it, but there are also times where you will be. It's not ALWAYS going to be effective and if you shouldn't have expectations that it should be. I've seen a lot of people use amps stupidly and run head on into a base, sometimes there's a little more strategy than just doing that required...

However, with that being said - I'm pretty sure it's still quite simple to understand that constant chasing and back-shooting that is un-necessary towards the flow game and with the intent to just piss someone off is a completely unacceptable and should be a ban-able offense as in iCTF.

[beck]

'Back shooting'? Is this a 99 thing? Fucking turn around.

[Hermione]

Yea can anyone do something about this mega laming in saCTF, as soon as someone gets the amp they get hunted down, and even the people on offense fall back and try to kill the amp it makes no sense. On top of that You have like 2 players on each team dming in mid waiting for the amp to come when the time is near... If teams are waiting and fighting for amp in mid, then its getting the focus away from the attackers to grab the flag more than they could have been doing or done.

[kevinsan1ty]

No problem with everyone taking over mid when the amp is up. That's part of the strategy. Falling back on the amp is annoying when you have it, but necessary given the advantage with the stack.

Don't think the general laming and back shooting is any different than it has been in iCTF. Same usual suspects doing it.

[Sauron]

Its all strategy. Waiting til around the time amp is up to break one to mid is often very effective. Opposing team is thinking about amp time and their defense doesn't get as much help. Time it right and your covet can grab amp as you're entering mid.

[kud]

especially if you're stacked with armour/vials/keg. I haven't been playing ut99, so I'm not sure what the situation is for powerups aside from amp

[PACO]

Moved to the appropriate forum.

I brought this topic up privately at the start of all this and I'm still curious to hear what people have to say on the matter.

[Lineage]

[Darkside]

what's next?

invisible amp!

or just give everyone the amp?

or just play ictf?? =D

[Darkside]

[RickJames]

I think that if "laming" is effective enough to slow down pugs to the point where it's a problem, then the mod/map is broken. It's gonna be 10x worse in a match with good players, and if we rely on rules to fix it in pugs, we're just ignoring the issue instead of working to fix it through trial and error.

The whole reason the rule existed in ictf was so that pugs wouldn't go into overtime or be incredibly boring and unwelcoming to inexperienced players. It's a band-aid for the fundamental problems in the mod. If we address the underlying issues, we don't need such rules and everyone benefits.

[kud]

I think the obvious solution is TAM/TDM season 2 or sdom or dealing with it and not being a baddie. Or a powerup that blocks enemy respawns for 30-60 seconds, or some other kind of jailbreak element.

[rev]

I suppose this is as good a place as any to also talk about the stacked amp. I personally think it's fine, it adds another huge element that you have to keep track of and control. The only time its really devastating is when one team loses time completely, doesn't know the amp was taken or that it's in their base and gets rekt. Which I think is fine, you should be punished for complete unawareness.

I agree with a lot of what's being said but I don't think it's "black and white" when a person is laming or not. I think it was already hard enough to tell in ictf, with sniper you would pretty much need an admin in spec every time to determine if somebody is laming..which we know isn't feasible. I'm inclined to say that I think we should suspend all the laming rules and see what happens. We either need more defined rules or suspension of the rules imo.

[rain]

It is not difficult to tell when someone is intentionally laming or not

Suspending all laming rules sounds about one of the worst things you could do for pugs, activity and the channel. You do that, the guidelines for CTF go out the window and it becomes actual pure TDM with occasional flag grabbing. Terrible suggestion.

[kud]

all due respect, the thread was made because it's apparently not very clear to some people which tactics are considered laming. Maybe clear it up for them and job done

edit: maybe rev should give specific examples of tactics that he thinks break the "laming" rule as it's currently enforced, to give reason why it needs to change

[rain]

Do we really need to define every single instance of what is considered laming after 10+ years of playing this game?

Laming:
- Intentionally chasing someone around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- Intentionally backshooting someone across/around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- 3D (unless you're against 4o)
- Roaming in mid, looking for frags with no intention of playing CTF.

Not Laming:
- Defending AMP while it's coming up.
- Assisting in taking down an amped player (this seems to be a common consensus that it makes no sense in not to assist taking down the amp as they can do serious damage)
- Falling back when D asks/needs help.

Please feel free to outline your certain instances you're unaware of so we clear everything up and can make toddlers understand as well.

[kud]

here's a team name for you

[rev]

[InfamousRaider]

[rain]

The high road? Please tell me what you consider laming because I'm genuinely interested. The point of this thread that you opened was the outline it, I'm giving my input to help come to full understand the put something together for pugs so please I'd love to hear yours other than lets abandon all and do a free for all TDM/CTF playstyle.

[blackout\\]

[rev]

It's a good question, I'm not sure I have a concise definition for laming (EDIT: ESPECIALLY HOW TO IT APPLIES WHEN IT BECOMES A BANNABLE OFFENSE). Which, again, is the reason I made this thread because I am sure many others fall into this same category. It also gets even more muddled when you add to the equation a new mod with pups that you have to dm to control in the middle of the map. In general, it's when if you're on offense you're excessively killing the opposing team's offense even when it's questionable as to whether it falls into effective ctf'ing.

As a for instance, suppose when you spawn you hang out in your base for a substantial amount of time ensuring it's cleared. Obviously you're not frag mongering and you're not doing it "for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc." In fact, it's actually a very effective tactic in ctf. I can give you more examples if you'd like.

[Sauron]

[wndg]

I remember when people got banned for cherry picking, now it's an acceptable form of trolling yours and the enemy team. Great way to feign ctf, and if you are named bowow people will suck your dick. These days people live in the grey area that is sweeping the base after every spawn, leaving your base in the general direction of whoever fragged you, and securing mid by turning your back to the enemy base when your flag is grabbed. Most peoples idea of CTF is taking the path of most resistance, congesting the flow of the map and slowing everything down to a crawl. The pugs definitely need rules. Rules are nothing without a somewhat interested staff to enforce them though. At this point they are more like suggestions.

Sniper CTF is less of a grind than instagib but it still gets ugly. Bunch of junkies sharing the same 15 year old syringe.

[Sonic|^]

[beck]

[Sauron]

Sniper gives the additional strategy of body shotting an enemy when you run past them to make them an easier kill for your defense, while retaining the benefit of them not spawning in your face (like in IG when you back shoot). This grey area could be considered a very intelligent tactic or laming.