Ban Previous Cheaters

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Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby GS3k » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:33 am

I've had some back and forth discussion with Paco on the subject and I'm personally against unilaterally banning previous cheaters but apparently there are a lot of people with strong feelings to the contrary.

So let's have it, should previous cheaters be banned from P.U.G.ing and barred from future events?

Vote yes or no and comment.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby PACO » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:18 am

I don't know what discussions we had on cheating. I just doublechecked my logs to make sure that I'm not losing my mind. I know we talked about DDoSers where I said that I have a zero tolerance policy and you were on the other side of the spectrum. The anti-DDoS policies will remain in effect for anything OwnedWell sanctioned whether it is events or channels.

The topic of cheaters is a lot more complicated. We have a cheat policy for UT99. We don't have anything established yet for UT4. This is something that the OwnedWell team will discuss and the situation is further complicated by the fact that we might be adding some extra games.

I don't see a public thread like this yielding anything productive since it's such a polarizing and multi-layered subject.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby RickJames » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:26 am

It's a judgement call.

I think people who've been caught in the past 4 years (at least) in any game played here should definitely be banned until that time frame is up. And even after that, I think they deserve extra scrutiny before/while being allowed back into competition, especially if they never admitted to things etc.

Outside of that (cheaters from a long time ago, people who weren't logged but just questionable, etc), I think the admins need to weigh things and make a call. It doesn't make sense to ban someone like blackout, who's been playing clean competitively for years now, at this stage. However, if someone like Bullet (tdm player who was caught with illegal tweaks many times and was pretty unrepentent about it) came back, I think it would be a tough call since he hasn't established that he's trustworthy.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby linoleumbonaparte » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:48 am

four fucking years? y'all are bonkers. relieve all bans and wipe the baby tears from y'all's eyes. it's a new game, a new era, new competition, a new community.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby PACO » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:07 am

linoleumbonaparte wrote:four fucking years? y'all are bonkers. relieve all bans and wipe the baby tears from y'all's eyes. it's a new game, a new era, new competition, a new community.

I'm leaning closer to where lino is at. New game, new era, new competition but it's not a new community. Not everyone will be given a blank slate and a lot of destructive personalities will continue to be excluded from the community.

What to do with people who are caught cheating in UT4 or other games we host is an entirely different matter. That is something that will be discussed and addressed as the game gets more polished and the competition gets more serious.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby RickJames » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:58 am

I don't see how a new game changes anything. It's not about vengeance or "baby tears", it's about keeping the community as clean and trustworthy as we can. Cheating in a video game in a community like this shows some real character defects, and history shows that convicted cheaters tend to be repeat offenders. I don't think such people contribute much positively.

Also, if you really think this is going to be some kind of "new era" of competition, and you expect activity to pick up that much, having a handful of lowlifes in the community shouldn't be that important to you. On the other hand, if you think that the playerbase here is going to continue to be small enough that having such people around makes a difference, then you can't use the "new era" justification for giving them a blank slate. You have to pick one.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby csnafk » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:56 am

I think anyone that was banned for DDosing should remain banned from us but as far as x22ers go this game is different, let them play.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby nvz » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:24 am

I've already discussed with a few people mentioning that we cannot properly do anything or invest in any type of investigation regarding anyone being suspected of cheating. Me and a few other guys have an idea of who's cheating in the competitive community, and a few European guys told me they have a few hackers, as well.

There are at least a dozen compatible hacks/cheats available for ut, half of them being radars or wall hacks. These can put you at the highest advantage possible, especially on the duel game type. It is also the easiest to hide. Trigger aim bots are also an issue, knowing that you can enable and disable your aim bot with the use of a hotkey.

I'm not really sure what Epic will do regarding this problem. We can't do much about it until a proper anti cheat comes out. But what will anti cheat do? Nothing. It will catch old cheat clients, but cheat developers are always updating their new cheat software to bypass anti cheat software implemented in the game.

Also, manipulating your ping or creating packet loss can cause less damage. This may be intentional or accidental. I'll post a video here soon explaining how it's done. What happens is that if you create packet loss for yourself, the game thinks you are actually further away from the intended spot, especially splash damage. You can actually take no damage at all in some situations. Accidental or not, I think people with this issue need to get their isp to fix this before entering any tournaments. It's a real game changer.

What can Owned Well do in the future to prevent cheaters?

Anti cheat is the most obvious. As mentioned above, we need to wait on Epic to implement it. Anti cheat is not the most reliable form of preventing a hacker from gaining the advantage, though.

Proper demo recording is a must. Right now I believe demo recording is only possible on official epic hubs. This feature should be available on all hubs and servers, no excuses. ALL players should be recording their own demos for tournaments and be providing them to a Dropbox after a round is over in a duel tournament. Again, no excuses. It's pretty easy and self explanatory.

Random screenshots should be taken during a player's match and uploaded to the server drop box. This can show if the user has any hacks enabled on their screen.

I think once we have the 3 things above enabled on our servers in the next year, we can get a roll on some tournaments. Besides, this gives epic some time to fix some issues with the core game play and net code(yeah we know the weapons still need nerfed!).

Like I said, nothing you can do. Nobody should be banned right now. Everyone gets their second chance starting now. I though giving my 2 cents on this wouldn't hurt. It is okay to run something like another factions ctf tournament, factions TDM, small CA/TAM tournaments in the future, but nothing serious until we have proper tools to do any investigations.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby linoleumbonaparte » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:49 am

we're talking about banning people who are convicted cheaters in OTHER VIDEO GAMES. WHICH IS INSANE.

HEY GUYS I USED TO DUPE ITEMS IN DIABLO 2. CUFF ME AND FUCK ME PLZ.

everyone trying a new game should have the same right to attempt a spot in the competitive community without being scrutinized for past actions. i've used a radar before, i know how they work. there will always be people who want to get that slight competitive edge, but i don't expect to have my league of legends account banned because a clan mate sent me a radar in 2003 in Unreal Tournament. nobody playing this new game knows about or cares about the previously convicted cheaters from a 2012 draft tournament in fucking instagib CTF for UT99.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Sauron » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:53 am

Demos might be easy but they aren't enforced in this community even when required. Last season when a demo was requested it was never submitted for the finals. Suspected players in the recent past have not submitted required demos and received no ban.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby GS3k » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:59 am

csnafk wrote:I think anyone that was banned for DDosing should remain banned from us but as far as x22ers go this game is different, let them play.


So what's the difference between an aimbot and someone who uses a program to D.D.o.S. a server? They both essentially ruin the game for others.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby de`pain » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:00 am

Cheaters will always cheat ;/ It's in their DNA. They might go through a "legit / detox" phase, but will eventually go back to abusing the system as cheats become far more advanced and subtle.

I know of at least 2 cheaters in the UT4 community. They are very prominent players, too. I personally witnessed one of them hacking, but was unable to obtain a video of it. However, someone just this morning linked me to a video of this particular player wall-hacking.

Very disappointing. I had a lot of respect for this player ;/
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby de`pain » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:04 am

linoleumbonaparte wrote:we're talking about banning people who are convicted cheaters in OTHER VIDEO GAMES. WHICH IS INSANE.

HEY GUYS I USED TO DUPE ITEMS IN DIABLO 2. CUFF ME AND FUCK ME PLZ.

everyone trying a new game should have the same right to attempt a spot in the competitive community without being scrutinized for past actions. i've used a radar before, i know how they work. there will always be people who want to get that slight competitive edge, but i don't expect to have my league of legends account banned because a clan mate sent me a radar in 2003 in Unreal Tournament. nobody playing this new game knows about or cares about the previously convicted cheaters from a 2012 draft tournament in fucking instagib CTF for UT99.


I personally don't care if someone had cheated in a MMO-type game. However, a cheater in FPS, especially a previous UT game, should not be trusted again.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby csnafk » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:30 am

GS3k wrote:
csnafk wrote:I think anyone that was banned for DDosing should remain banned from us but as far as x22ers go this game is different, let them play.


So what's the difference between an aimbot and someone who uses a program to D.D.o.S. a server? They both essentially ruin the game for others.

Because DDosing is illegal and cheating is not. DDosers should be completely and entirely closed off as much as we can so they can't continue to decide to continue this behavior to the (almost) same community. The difference is that cheating is stoppable, where DDosing is almost not preventable.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby linoleumbonaparte » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:38 am

de`pain wrote:
linoleumbonaparte wrote:we're talking about banning people who are convicted cheaters in OTHER VIDEO GAMES. WHICH IS INSANE.

HEY GUYS I USED TO DUPE ITEMS IN DIABLO 2. CUFF ME AND FUCK ME PLZ.

everyone trying a new game should have the same right to attempt a spot in the competitive community without being scrutinized for past actions. i've used a radar before, i know how they work. there will always be people who want to get that slight competitive edge, but i don't expect to have my league of legends account banned because a clan mate sent me a radar in 2003 in Unreal Tournament. nobody playing this new game knows about or cares about the previously convicted cheaters from a 2012 draft tournament in fucking instagib CTF for UT99.


I personally don't care if someone had cheated in a MMO-type game. However, a cheater in FPS, especially a previous UT game, should not be trusted again.


whether someone cheated in a competitive setting or public setting in the FPS/UT series game is also pertinent, but I don't feel like anyone should be punished for something they did in another video game/another community. If i get a VAC ban from a competitive L4D2 match or some shit should i be banned from CTF pugs in UT where i have a 15 year clean record? same should apply to someone who was caught cheating in UT99 instagib in 2011 or something dumb.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Sauron » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:53 am

What about a guy like lavak3 who has constantly cheated in every ut?
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby massie » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:29 pm

should keep certain ppl banned who did too much to fuck ut99 community up so its a new game and everything is forgotten and forgiven ? i vote yes
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby lavak3 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:58 pm

phpBB [video]
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Numb » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:17 pm

I might be ok with playing with convicted cheaters in tournaments as long as they demorec their client. If they don't have the files at the end of the tournament and end up winning it, then their win shouldn't count.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby PACO » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:20 pm

Numb wrote:I might be ok with playing with convicted cheaters in tournaments as long as they demorec their client. If they don't have the files at the end of the tournament and end up winning it, then their win shouldn't count.

Everyone should have to demo and these files should be accessible to everyone.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Numb » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:00 pm

PACO wrote:
Numb wrote:I might be ok with playing with convicted cheaters in tournaments as long as they demorec their client. If they don't have the files at the end of the tournament and end up winning it, then their win shouldn't count.

Everyone should have to demo and these files should be accessible to everyone.


That would be ideal, you are right.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby BUDDY » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:49 pm

i think all cheaters should be banned except for former/current ones that end up on whatever team i am playing for

also, i think the admins need to make a PUBLIC APOLOGY to all ddosers. they are just misunderstood. they dont know where their packets are going. they think they are helping. just ask them guys. its all just a big misunderstanding.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Cookiemonster » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:00 pm

We have to work as a community when reviewing cheat accusations, etc. Anyhow, I find it hilarious that this thread was even made.

<[ROXT]SHACKLE> You and xios tried to give it to fusion then he exposed you two retards
<stryfe`> GOT YOU CHICKEN
* ph34r\\synergy has quit (Ping timeout)
<GS3k> Actually we checked it out and all stopped using it.
<[ROXT]SHACKLE> after you botted in a pug
<[ROXT]SHACKLE> because you thought it was funny
<GS3k> No I was just trolling Knell.
<GS3k> You can ask him.

<GS3k> I trolled Knell in 2k4 C.T.F.


Hey guys! Let's use a blatant bot in a UT4PUG and see how it goes over. Who wants to try it? I elect buddy.
Terms and Conditions:
1) You must change your name and act like you've never heard of your previous one, because of all the bad decisions you have made (case in point: Ganja-->GS3K).
2) You must gain OP status in the channel currently used for pugging in UT4 and then with the amazing power bestowed upon you, troll people daily.
3) You must then make a thread on Owned Well about banning people who have cheated in previous instances of UT once it's in pre-alpha, when in fact you have botted in a previous games' CTF PUG yourself, showing everyone your amazing sense of judgement.

Also, De'Pain and others..where is this video of a certain player wallhacking? Are you just trying to like drop hints to build suspense for a final reveal, or what? I keep seeing these secretive posts on the UT forums and now this. I'd take a private PM if you don't want to expose someone's name or something. If it's just you spectating them in game..those accusations are very hard to make. That is exactly my point regarding this topic. We need everyone in the community to be involved and many different competent people to be viewing demos and using anti-cheat tools.

Specific example #1: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/sho ... ake-action
You didn't think that Maty was blatantly hacking, and yet you can easily tell who is hacking from spec? Interesting.

Specific example #2: You were aliasing in duel.. GS3K comes in and starts calling you a wallhacker in spec for two straight maps, based on how he thought you were looking through the walls at your opponent. That is, until he found out it was you..and subsequently erased all memory of his accusations.

I don't have any beef with you and respect your skill, but the fact remains that pointing out a hacker is much harder than just popping into spec one day.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby KillEmAll » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:33 pm

Lan proven, or your a hack.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby detox » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:34 pm

If sufficient evidence is collected against a suspected cheater, PACO should review it and make the verdict soley by himself. Many people in this community might have expertise in this field but all suffer from the human flaws of bias and speculation. I'm not saying PACO is immortal or anything, but he's the closest thing we have to a perfect system.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Sauron » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:58 pm

detox wrote:If sufficient evidence is collected against a suspected cheater, PACO should review it and make the verdict soley by himself. Many people in this community might have expertise in this field but all suffer from the human flaws of bias and speculation. I'm not saying PACO is immortal or anything, but he's the closest thing we have to a perfect system.


Your mouth seems to be full of something
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Sonic|^ » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:20 pm

Man, this thread is taking me back to the good ol days.
They Don’t Think It Be Like It Is, But It Do.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby PACO » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:21 pm

Sauron wrote:
detox wrote:If sufficient evidence is collected against a suspected cheater, PACO should review it and make the verdict soley by himself. Many people in this community might have expertise in this field but all suffer from the human flaws of bias and speculation. I'm not saying PACO is immortal or anything, but he's the closest thing we have to a perfect system.


Your mouth seems to be full of something

Gospel.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby GS3k » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:35 pm

Cookiemonster wrote:Hey guys! Let's use a blatant bot in a UT4PUG and see how it goes over. Who wants to try it? I elect buddy.
Terms and Conditions:
1) You must change your name and act like you've never heard of your previous one, because of all the bad decisions you have made (case in point: Ganja-->GS3K).
2) You must gain OP status in the channel currently used for pugging in UT4 and then with the amazing power bestowed upon you, troll people daily.
3) You must then make a thread on Owned Well about banning people who have cheated in previous instances of UT once it's in pre-alpha, when in fact you have botted in a previous games' CTF PUG yourself, showing everyone your amazing sense of judgement.


You're a little slow, so I'll try to keep this as simple as possible for you.

I tested out an aimbot in 2k* so I knew what I was looking for as far as wall hacks and aim angles and the like. That's how I know that a cheat will mess with your netcode and what type of odd mouse movement to look for. I did it for about 2-3 games then I deleted it because I had learned pretty much everything I felt I was going to. I'll readily admit that, and Fusion didn't "out" anybody - he was right there with me checking it out. How does Shackle know any of this? It was his cracked helios that I used because he's the one guy I know with aimbots. I also shoot 50+ accuracy on L.A.N. and have been in most every duel tournament for 2k* since 2007. I can also hop into other games and aim/perform just as well. If anything I'm more concerned about people who secretly aimbot or deny ever having used them because they want to perpetuate a false notion for their own egotistical purposes.

I'm going with GS3k for a reason other than what you think. I don't feel the need to explain it to you but believe me it's a pretty damned good one. I also won't ever deny that having been my handle but I think the last time I played with it was in 2008 (or six-ish years ago) when I set out on my career path.

Anything you hear about Knell and I in that C.T.F. P.U.G. is hearsay. You can ask him if you want but we both had a great time together at Quake Con '14 so any rumors that someone else may be perpetuating are just that unless you hear it from Knell or I.

Finally Cookie, I'm on the record as saying that everyone should be given a second chance. I was just taking this topic of discussion away from the Unreal Tournament Epic Forum to here where it I felt it was more appropriate. I don't understand why you're attacking me, must be a subject that makes you uncomfortable.

P.S. Someone asked me to come spec this guy and from his uncanny awareness I thought it might be possible he was wall hacking but I couldn't say for certain. Once I knew it was de`pain then I knew for sure that we were just dealing with one of the penultimate duelers that has ever graced Unreal Tournament. So if this guy who has such unerring prediction and game sense thinks someone is wall hacking then he's probably onto something.

P.P.S. I think it's funny you think you know all this about me but I have almost no knowledge of you besides the fact that you played for resurrection in some capacity. The only player that I had ever really heard of from that team was Gothmog.
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Re: Ban Previous Cheaters

Postby Cookiemonster » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:20 pm

What do you mean hearsay?
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Xios didn't know what I was doing and when I told him afterwords he was pretty upset.

In fact at that time Knell you were an admin at #2k4CTF and you were the owner of the only CTF server left standing. I told you precisely what I did because I did it to get at you, I just chased you around all game with shock tape and the aimbot on full aim to annoy you. Then after the PUG I told you I was aimbotting you all map in PMs because I was pretty convinced at that time there were some shenanigans on your behalf. You were the one who unbanned me from the server and let me keep playing not Xios.


I did it on my own and I even fucking told you about it. I botted you on your own server, told you about it immediately afterwards, and you unbanned me anyways. Now who tolerates cheaters?


My last post in this thread tbh. I'm not even saying you hack in UT4 or anything, I just find it funny that you constantly hold yourself to such a high esteem regarding outing cheaters, and constantly accuse people of cheating, when you have done stuff like this.

PS I kind of vote no? Cheaters have a certain kind of personality that grinds me the wrong way. But honestly, the past UTs are so far in the past, ya know? I guess it'll ultimately be decided by the ownedwell top dawgs and the community.
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