[#iPug] Time Limit

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CTF matches should be...

15 minutes
19
46%
20 minutes
20
49%
Henry Heimlich is widely credited as the inventor of the Heimlich maneuver.
2
5%
 
Total votes : 41

[#iPug] Time Limit

Postby PACO » Mon May 11, 2015 3:34 pm

Howdy yall,

I'm starting this thread because I am genuinely curious about how people feel about a potential rule change.. The current time limit in CTF games is 20mins.. It has been this way for as long as I can remember however just because it has been this way, doesn't mean it is the best way of doing things..

I'm curious how people would feel about 15mins per map versus 20mins? With the 8 minute rule going into effect, it could cut down the total pug time from roughly an hour to 40minsish (barring no bans). I also feel like this could be a decent change for sDOM as well since a lot of people have expressed that they like the gametype however fighting for the same point for 20mins can get a bit repetitive.

Is this something that we should experiment with? Why/why not? Do games need 20mins to be settled? Is 15 enough? Are you indifferent? Do you need a Heimlich maneuver performed or are you only choking on apathy? Let us know.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby d3R » Mon May 11, 2015 3:38 pm

Personally i'd like 15 min for sdom/idom/dm but i like 20 min for ictf/sactf. Could also decrease the caplimit from 10 to say 6 or smt?
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby PACO » Mon May 11, 2015 3:43 pm

d3R wrote:Personally i'd like 15 min for sdom/idom/dm but i like 20 min for ictf/sactf. Could also decrease the caplimit from 10 to say 6 or smt?

I feel like a lot of close games would end too quickly with a cap limit of 6. It's fine for something like Duku but no bueno for a map like Command.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby kevinsan1ty » Mon May 11, 2015 4:03 pm

Anything to get people more active and get more pugs going. Don't mind 15 minutes at all. This, along with the 8 minute rule, means you could potentially have pugs that take 40 minutes, which would be some achievement. :OWgrinsgasm:
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby RickJames » Mon May 11, 2015 4:39 pm

I don't care as much about ictf or sactf, but for sdom I'm adamant about sticking with 20 mins. So much can happen in 5 mins- amp runs, powerups, just getting control of a point and playing out-of-your-mind to swing things. The shorter you make games, the more one amp run or good run at a cp affects things. Considering how hard it is to retake some points, this is a big deal. It's really common to see a guy losing a cp like statues like bertha or statues by a large margin and completely swinging it back in the last few mins with one good run or maybe a little help from a last minute amp.

You can't tell me that concentrating for 20 mins in sdom is "boring" on average compared to playing 20 mins in ctf mods. If you're getting beat down, you should be focusing on figuring out what you're doing wrong. If you're raping, think of ways to rape the guy harder- see if you can predict his spawn more often or time the armor even closer on the second. I know how it is, I've lost my cool and given up while getting shut down many times in the past. But I don't see any reason to cater to that attitude or whatever mentality prevents people from concentrating for that long.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Serenity » Mon May 11, 2015 6:24 pm

What the fuck no. 15 minute maps just make it easier to turtle, also I've played 20 minutes for like 11 years... I'd feel robbed when the game finished 5 minutes earlier.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Hermione » Mon May 11, 2015 7:07 pm

I agree with serenity, 15 minutes would do the match no justice. 15 minutes fly by and its like robbing you of time from a pug that we wait so long to play. 20 is perfect and i think thats why it was the universal standard to use 20 for pugs. And I don't wanna join ictf and wait an hour for it to start, just to wait another 10 minutes until it starts then play for only 30 minutes, it wouldn't make sense.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby blackout\\ » Mon May 11, 2015 7:39 pm

20 minute limit for all mods.

Enforce a strict 7 minute rule (including click in) and a 2-3 minute map 2 change. If that's actually enforced like the prozp or zpctf days I'm pretty sure we'll get more pugs going that won't take longer than an hour.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby rev » Mon May 11, 2015 7:48 pm

Great idea..no logical reason for 20 min, completely arbitrary. Only downside I can think of is that when there's low activity levels people might feel slighted if they wait a long time and maps are shorter. But, having lower map times might increase activity levels from people who wouldn't pug because of time constraints. For sure should try it out imo.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby PACO » Mon May 11, 2015 8:05 pm

blackout\\ wrote:20 minute limit for all mods.

Enforce a strict 7 minute rule (including click in) and a 2-3 minute map 2 change. If that's actually enforced like the prozp or zpctf days I'm pretty sure we'll get more pugs going that won't take longer than an hour.

I think that people look at the past with rose tinted glasses. For the people voting 20 minutes.. do you really think that the 5 extra minutes makes that much of a difference? Would you be opposed to experimenting for a week or tow?
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby JINNZILLA » Mon May 11, 2015 11:24 pm

15 mins sounds a lot better... already takes a long time for people to get in the server, (even though the 8 minute rule was put into effect, its still not enforced :? ) , and get a map picked as well.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Sauron » Tue May 12, 2015 12:11 am

20 minutes...
If you want to decrease the overall pug time, decrease the click rule time to 5 minutes. That makes it roughly 45 minutes for a pug.
If you want a shorter pug overall, introduce 1 map pugs.
20 minutes for a map isn't long at all (besides tdm DM)
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby rain » Tue May 12, 2015 9:06 am

Sauron wrote:20 minutes...
If you want to decrease the overall pug time, decrease the click rule time to 5 minutes. That makes it roughly 45 minutes for a pug.
If you want a shorter pug overall, introduce 1 map pugs.
20 minutes for a map isn't long at all (besides tdm DM)
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Serenity » Tue May 12, 2015 11:18 am

Sauron wrote:20 minutes...
If you want to decrease the overall pug time, decrease the click rule time to 5 minutes. That makes it roughly 45 minutes for a pug.
If you want a shorter pug overall, introduce 1 map pugs.
20 minutes for a map isn't long at all (besides tdm DM)


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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Hermione » Tue May 12, 2015 11:24 am

JA i agree, 8 minute enforced rule to server, and 5 minute enforced rule to choose the map and click in, anyone not there or not clicked in should be banned. 15 minutes is a good time for TDM, and sdom etc.. like they said. iCTF needs a full 20 minutes. Wouldnt play if it was 15. But i think if you wanna try it out, you should make 2 mods 15 min one and 20 min one to see what happens. :mrgreen:
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby NakedMan » Tue May 12, 2015 1:10 pm

Sauron wrote:20 minutes...
If you want to decrease the overall pug time, decrease the click rule time to 5 minutes. That makes it roughly 45 minutes for a pug.
If you want a shorter pug overall, introduce 1 map pugs.
20 minutes for a map isn't long at all (besides tdm DM)
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Serenity » Tue May 12, 2015 1:31 pm

All I see is people voting for 15 minutes without a good argument other than the fact people take too long to get into a server. Fix to that: GET IN THE SERVER FASTER. It's not hard. 2k4 pugs start 3-4 mins after teams are picked. Nevermind waiting for people to join the server AND THEN CLICK too. The only people with plausible arguments are the people against the change. I hope the outcome isn't based on the poll alone since nearly every comment for 15 minutes has been weak at best.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby m3ss » Tue May 12, 2015 2:30 pm

I think a more reasonable/realistic metric to make a case for this change is to see how many maps are truly affected by those extra five minutes? It shouldn't be hard to run through some statistical data to see if those five minutes had a demonstrable affect on the outcome of the map, or if ultimately it "prolonged the inevitable".

Another thing to look at is stalemates. How many iCTF games have no scoring until those final five minutes? Sometimes the urgency of the clock ticking away is the only thing to break open a map, as teams become more and more aggressive to try and crack the defense and produce a cap. Sometimes that never happens at all and we see two hour overtimes. (*cough*EC2*cough*)

While the purist in me agrees that this is a potentially big change (especially if it was to be rolled into leagues and tournaments), I don't think the argument that "this is always how it's been done" is any better than the people simply wanting shorter PUG times. Granted, the goal of shorter PUG/match times should not come at the expense of the game's competitive integrity. It should be based on real, measurable data. And as I said, if it can be demonstrated that those 5 extra minutes generally do not affect the outcome of the map, I don't see why testing 15 minute games would be an issue.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby miracle » Tue May 12, 2015 6:44 pm

You know I post once in a blue moon from time to time.. here are my points and ill do it bullet wise so hopefully people don't go off about my grammar. which is bad

*20 minutes= exactly what mess said, some of the best thing happens in the last few minutes why change the time.
* most pugs last an hour not because of the 20 min game but because people take forever to click in. join the server or pick the map they want to play
*I noticed 8 min rule has been being taken into effect. but that does no justice if people join and don't click in and pick a map. ANYONE CAN JOIN IN 8 MINS.
*One of the biggest reasons I and quite a few of us other old timers take time to join a pug is because we know from experience that people take forever to click in, forever to pick their map.

If you want to fix the time of pugs the spots to look at is not the game mod timer, but the people. People shouldn't take 10 minutes to pick their map, (Hell, ive been in pugs where a team picked 3 diff maps before they were happy with the map they picked...) click in timelimit and map pick time limit is where to start.

Tam pugs, people join in instantly and already pick the map the second they join and people are clicking in within the 5 minutes. (why is that so easy for them?) because, they join wanting to get the pug started, their players who pugged are ready to play, they know what map they want. their players look at the time rule as a rule to click in and start the pug; where as a lot of our players look at your 8 minute rule as a well lets get logged on the server and after 8 minutes then ill figure out the map. but at least im on the server so no ban. Map pick time and click in time is what slows the pugs down.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby HULKSMASH » Tue May 12, 2015 7:02 pm

I suggest picking maps already after picking process. That way you avoid the whole everybody's clicked in within 8 mins... now we need another 5-10 minutes to discuss map before each map played.

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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby d3R » Wed May 13, 2015 11:09 am

HULKSMASH wrote:I suggest picking maps already after picking process. That way you avoid the whole everybody's clicked in within 8 mins... now we need another 5-10 minutes to discuss map before each map played.


Maybe do a majority vote on both maps instead of both captains picking 1 map? That would remove the 'need' for a captain to discuss the map pick.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby Sauron » Wed May 13, 2015 11:36 am

That would lead to stagnant map picking...also makes it harder to prepare for matches if you can't even pick a map you want to play.
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby rain » Wed May 13, 2015 1:38 pm

I say let the bot spit out two maps, forces different maps to be played!
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby HULKSMASH » Wed May 13, 2015 2:02 pm

I like the idea, but what if it picks DS :o

Also in my time I've heard like 5 captains force a map (one of them angus), otherwise it's always majority of team picking map.

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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby d3R » Wed May 13, 2015 2:43 pm

Sauron wrote:That would lead to stagnant map picking...


Thats could happen, maybe that can be mitigated by allowing the same map to be picked only after X amount of other maps have been played. I think there is some mutator for that out there.

I like rain's suggestion, but it's possibly a bit harder to implement and more duku-fanatics would object...
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby PACO » Wed May 13, 2015 2:46 pm

If the bot could automatically and randomly spit out maps, I'd be ok with that. I'm fairly liberal and open to changes like that but I don't want to get Jon Snow'd (you'll get the reference if you read the books and if you don't LOOOOOOOOL you should).
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby bug » Wed May 13, 2015 3:07 pm

what about deactivating auto-picking during and slightly before cup seasons for any mod?
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby kevinsan1ty » Wed May 13, 2015 5:05 pm

PACO wrote:If the bot could automatically and randomly spit out maps, I'd be ok with that. I'm fairly liberal and open to changes like that but I don't want to get Jon Snow'd (you'll get the reference if you read the books and if you don't LOOOOOOOOL you should).


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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby PACO » Wed May 13, 2015 5:56 pm

kevinsan1ty wrote:
PACO wrote:If the bot could automatically and randomly spit out maps, I'd be ok with that. I'm fairly liberal and open to changes like that but I don't want to get Jon Snow'd (you'll get the reference if you read the books and if you don't LOOOOOOOOL you should).


Get fucked by a bucktoothed redheaded chick?

:lol:

Not what I was going for but I'll take it.. Wait.. :OWgrinsgasm: :OWgrinsgasm:
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Re: [#iPug] Time Limit

Postby risus` » Wed May 13, 2015 6:41 pm

rain wrote:I say let the bot spit out two maps, forces different maps to be played!


This would be awesome if possible and with a few limitations like no team can repeat the same map twice in a row or at all. Yes, you could get "Jon Snow'd" as PACO says but at least everyone would have the equal chance of getting a map they may not want.
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