Input/clarification sniper pugs

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Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rev » Mon May 04, 2015 10:44 pm

With tam league on the way out and sniper league on the way in, there has been a huge uptick in the amount of sniper pugs. I'm curious if people have any input on whether or not clarification or changes are needed in regards to laming in sniper pugs. I think the primary reason enforcement and set rules was so important for ictf was because laming was so effective in ictf. I feel like it's not so effective in sactf and in addition since there are pups all over the map it can very often be argued that you're protecting a pup while waiting for it to spawn. Just curious what people think.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby clankiller » Mon May 04, 2015 11:12 pm

with the amp being the decider in 98% of pugs i have played i will say i changed the way i run O to making sure the other team doesnt get it. me having amp isnt going to change the game all that much as i noemally last 5 secs with it anyway but it does stop the other team from getting it. i think having the amp stacked as much as it is will only do this so laming i dont know? its too stacked in my eyes. amp and keg is plenty also no shieldbelt as it only lights you up as having amp anyway.

yes i see the shield belt ok so its not invisable for sure...

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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby csnafk » Tue May 05, 2015 7:32 am

The entire 1 pug i played in so far if someone had amp total team fallback. Was no v fun :<
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rain » Tue May 05, 2015 9:16 am

I think it's a grey area but also very black & white. It makes complete sense to fallback and chase an amp, sure there are times you won't be able to do anything with it, but there are also times where you will be. It's not ALWAYS going to be effective and if you shouldn't have expectations that it should be. I've seen a lot of people use amps stupidly and run head on into a base, sometimes there's a little more strategy than just doing that required...

However, with that being said - I'm pretty sure it's still quite simple to understand that constant chasing and back-shooting that is un-necessary towards the flow game and with the intent to just piss someone off is a completely unacceptable and should be a ban-able offense as in iCTF.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby beck » Tue May 05, 2015 10:47 am

'Back shooting'? Is this a 99 thing? Fucking turn around.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Hermione » Tue May 05, 2015 11:00 am

Yea can anyone do something about this mega laming in saCTF, as soon as someone gets the amp they get hunted down, and even the people on offense fall back and try to kill the amp it makes no sense. On top of that You have like 2 players on each team dming in mid waiting for the amp to come when the time is near... :| If teams are waiting and fighting for amp in mid, then its getting the focus away from the attackers to grab the flag more than they could have been doing or done.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby kevinsan1ty » Tue May 05, 2015 11:29 am

No problem with everyone taking over mid when the amp is up. That's part of the strategy. Falling back on the amp is annoying when you have it, but necessary given the advantage with the stack.

Don't think the general laming and back shooting is any different than it has been in iCTF. Same usual suspects doing it.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Sauron » Tue May 05, 2015 11:37 am

Its all strategy. Waiting til around the time amp is up to break one to mid is often very effective. Opposing team is thinking about amp time and their defense doesn't get as much help. Time it right and your covet can grab amp as you're entering mid.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby kud » Tue May 05, 2015 11:49 am

especially if you're stacked with armour/vials/keg. I haven't been playing ut99, so I'm not sure what the situation is for powerups aside from amp
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby PACO » Tue May 05, 2015 1:09 pm

Moved to the appropriate forum.

I brought this topic up privately at the start of all this and I'm still curious to hear what people have to say on the matter.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Lineage » Tue May 05, 2015 1:38 pm

Lineage wrote:pup control is fine

blackballing a stacked amp/belt is fine

playing like a douche and waiting for people to run by to peg them in the back, with no pups to control or flags to return, is asking for a ban imo

there is context to ones actions and there is being a lamer..I think there is a line that can be determined, it's just a visual one that requires a person to look themselves instead of relying on two sides to a story, because context is the key. Is there an amp coming up, or is the guy just being a dick because he's up 1-0 and they lost the last map.


Literal copy/paste
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Darkside » Tue May 05, 2015 1:39 pm

what's next?

invisible amp!

or just give everyone the amp?

or just play ictf?? =D
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Darkside » Tue May 05, 2015 1:39 pm

rain wrote:I think it's a grey area but also very black & white.


:OWfacepalm: :OWfacepalm: :OWfacepalm: :OWfacepalm: :OWfacepalm:
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby RickJames » Tue May 05, 2015 2:04 pm

I think that if "laming" is effective enough to slow down pugs to the point where it's a problem, then the mod/map is broken. It's gonna be 10x worse in a match with good players, and if we rely on rules to fix it in pugs, we're just ignoring the issue instead of working to fix it through trial and error.

The whole reason the rule existed in ictf was so that pugs wouldn't go into overtime or be incredibly boring and unwelcoming to inexperienced players. It's a band-aid for the fundamental problems in the mod. If we address the underlying issues, we don't need such rules and everyone benefits.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby kud » Tue May 05, 2015 2:33 pm

I think the obvious solution is TAM/TDM season 2 or sdom or dealing with it and not being a baddie. Or a powerup that blocks enemy respawns for 30-60 seconds, or some other kind of jailbreak element.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rev » Tue May 05, 2015 2:52 pm

I suppose this is as good a place as any to also talk about the stacked amp. I personally think it's fine, it adds another huge element that you have to keep track of and control. The only time its really devastating is when one team loses time completely, doesn't know the amp was taken or that it's in their base and gets rekt. Which I think is fine, you should be punished for complete unawareness.

I agree with a lot of what's being said but I don't think it's "black and white" when a person is laming or not. I think it was already hard enough to tell in ictf, with sniper you would pretty much need an admin in spec every time to determine if somebody is laming..which we know isn't feasible. I'm inclined to say that I think we should suspend all the laming rules and see what happens. We either need more defined rules or suspension of the rules imo.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rain » Tue May 05, 2015 2:58 pm

It is not difficult to tell when someone is intentionally laming or not :roll:

Suspending all laming rules sounds about one of the worst things you could do for pugs, activity and the channel. You do that, the guidelines for CTF go out the window and it becomes actual pure TDM with occasional flag grabbing. Terrible suggestion.
Last edited by rain on Tue May 05, 2015 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby kud » Tue May 05, 2015 3:00 pm

all due respect, the thread was made because it's apparently not very clear to some people which tactics are considered laming. Maybe clear it up for them and job done

edit: maybe rev should give specific examples of tactics that he thinks break the "laming" rule as it's currently enforced, to give reason why it needs to change
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rain » Tue May 05, 2015 3:05 pm

Do we really need to define every single instance of what is considered laming after 10+ years of playing this game?

Laming:
- Intentionally chasing someone around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- Intentionally backshooting someone across/around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- 3D (unless you're against 4o)
- Roaming in mid, looking for frags with no intention of playing CTF.

Not Laming:
- Defending AMP while it's coming up.
- Assisting in taking down an amped player (this seems to be a common consensus that it makes no sense in not to assist taking down the amp as they can do serious damage)
- Falling back when D asks/needs help.

Please feel free to outline your certain instances you're unaware of so we clear everything up and can make toddlers understand as well.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby kud » Tue May 05, 2015 3:13 pm

here's a team name for you
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rev » Tue May 05, 2015 3:16 pm

rain wrote:Do we really need to define every single instance of what is considered laming after 10+ years of playing this game?

Laming:
- Intentionally chasing someone around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- Intentionally backshooting someone across/around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- 3D (unless you're against 4o)
- Roaming in mid, looking for frags with no intention of playing CTF.

Not Laming:
- Defending AMP while it's coming up.
- Assisting in taking down an amped player (this seems to be a common consensus that it makes no sense in not to assist taking down the amp as they can do serious damage)
- Falling back when D asks/needs help.

Please feel free to outline your certain instances you're unaware of so we clear everything up and can make toddlers understand as well.


I'm actually gonna take the high road and not respond to this other than to say if this is the current definition of laming, it's terrible.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby InfamousRaider » Tue May 05, 2015 3:19 pm

RickJames wrote:I think that if "laming" is effective enough to slow down pugs to the point where it's a problem, then the mod/map is broken. It's gonna be 10x worse in a match with good players, and if we rely on rules to fix it in pugs, we're just ignoring the issue instead of working to fix it through trial and error.

The whole reason the rule existed in ictf was so that pugs wouldn't go into overtime or be incredibly boring and unwelcoming to inexperienced players. It's a band-aid for the fundamental problems in the mod. If we address the underlying issues, we don't need such rules and everyone benefits.

RJ summed it up very well.


Invisible, silent amp might help some of the fallback.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rain » Tue May 05, 2015 3:19 pm

The high road? Please tell me what you consider laming because I'm genuinely interested. The point of this thread that you opened was the outline it, I'm giving my input to help come to full understand the put something together for pugs so please I'd love to hear yours other than lets abandon all and do a free for all TDM/CTF playstyle.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby blackout\\ » Tue May 05, 2015 3:25 pm

rev wrote:
rain wrote:Do we really need to define every single instance of what is considered laming after 10+ years of playing this game?

Laming:
- Intentionally chasing someone around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- Intentionally backshooting someone across/around the map for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc.
- 3D (unless you're against 4o)
- Roaming in mid, looking for frags with no intention of playing CTF.

Not Laming:
- Defending AMP while it's coming up.
- Assisting in taking down an amped player (this seems to be a common consensus that it makes no sense in not to assist taking down the amp as they can do serious damage)
- Falling back when D asks/needs help.

Please feel free to outline your certain instances you're unaware of so we clear everything up and can make toddlers understand as well.


I'm actually gonna take the high road and not respond to this other than to say if this is the current definition of laming, it's terrible.


This is a pretty general guideline on what I consider being lame/not lame. There is a grey area in falling back but for the most part, this basically sums up the idea of general laming.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby rev » Tue May 05, 2015 3:28 pm

It's a good question, I'm not sure I have a concise definition for laming (EDIT: ESPECIALLY HOW TO IT APPLIES WHEN IT BECOMES A BANNABLE OFFENSE). Which, again, is the reason I made this thread because I am sure many others fall into this same category. It also gets even more muddled when you add to the equation a new mod with pups that you have to dm to control in the middle of the map. In general, it's when if you're on offense you're excessively killing the opposing team's offense even when it's questionable as to whether it falls into effective ctf'ing.

As a for instance, suppose when you spawn you hang out in your base for a substantial amount of time ensuring it's cleared. Obviously you're not frag mongering and you're not doing it "for no real purpose other than to piss them off, because you don't like them, etc." In fact, it's actually a very effective tactic in ctf. I can give you more examples if you'd like.
Last edited by rev on Tue May 05, 2015 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Sauron » Tue May 05, 2015 3:37 pm

kud wrote:I think the obvious solution is TAM/TDM season 2 or sdom or dealing with it and not being a baddie. Or a powerup that blocks enemy respawns for 30-60 seconds, or some other kind of jailbreak element.

Or a pup that blocks ALL spawns for 30 seconds. Turn it into LMS. Oh yeah!
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby wndg » Tue May 05, 2015 7:27 pm

I remember when people got banned for cherry picking, now it's an acceptable form of trolling yours and the enemy team. Great way to feign ctf, and if you are named bowow people will suck your dick. These days people live in the grey area that is sweeping the base after every spawn, leaving your base in the general direction of whoever fragged you, and securing mid by turning your back to the enemy base when your flag is grabbed. Most peoples idea of CTF is taking the path of most resistance, congesting the flow of the map and slowing everything down to a crawl. The pugs definitely need rules. Rules are nothing without a somewhat interested staff to enforce them though. At this point they are more like suggestions.

Sniper CTF is less of a grind than instagib but it still gets ugly. Bunch of junkies sharing the same 15 year old syringe.
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Sonic|^ » Tue May 05, 2015 9:26 pm

wndg wrote:I remember when people got banned for cherry picking, now it's an acceptable form of trolling yours and the enemy team. Great way to feign ctf, and if you are named bowow people will suck your dick. These days people live in the grey area that is sweeping the base after every spawn, leaving your base in the general direction of whoever fragged you, and securing mid by turning your back to the enemy base when your flag is grabbed. Most peoples idea of CTF is taking the path of most resistance, congesting the flow of the map and slowing everything down to a crawl. The pugs definitely need rules. Rules are nothing without a somewhat interested staff to enforce them though. At this point they are more like suggestions.

Sniper CTF is less of a grind than instagib but it still gets ugly. Bunch of junkies sharing the same 15 year old syringe.



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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby beck » Wed May 06, 2015 8:12 am

Hermione wrote:... as soon as someone gets the amp they get hunted down, and even the people on offense fall back and try to kill the amp it makes no sense. On top of that You have like 2 players on each team dming in mid waiting for the amp to come when the time is near... :| ...


I don't know Hermione so it might be the case here, but is this sarcasm or pure idiocracy? Ever since the concept of an AMP or Double damage has been around it's put a target on the person carrying it; I don't care if it's TDM or CTF, it's pure strategy to KILL THE PERSON WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO ONE SHOT ANYONE and if you let them roam without an attempt to kill them you are asking for trouble.

It seems like you are trying to just put as many stipulations and bandages on a game as possible to make it 'run in a straight line, go strictly for the flag on O and camp the base on D'. This is clearly coming from someone with no 99 experience and from a better game :twisted: (jokes).

In my first two 99 pugs (ever) I was able to get 2 caps (out of 6 grabs) by occasionally cherry picking, being smart and knowing that the enemy D chased my teammate carrying the flag. I couldn't catch up to my teammate being killed but I sure as shit could grab the flag when he died and get away before being spotted. It might not work every time but it worked the few times I tried it. My first pug EVER and I see Rain complain about 'being shot in the back' - probably by me - but guess what, its an FPS and if you run past me I'm going to shoot. You don't get a pass. If i can get a shot into you, making you able to be one shotted by my D it helps them and it helps us. It seems like common sense to weaken the enemy before they try to steal your flag.

Ya'll 99ers are crazy mother fuckers. What am I missing? :?: :?: (Honest question because I enjoyed the few pugs I played)
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Re: Input/clarification sniper pugs

Postby Sauron » Wed May 06, 2015 9:21 am

Sniper gives the additional strategy of body shotting an enemy when you run past them to make them an easier kill for your defense, while retaining the benefit of them not spawning in your face (like in IG when you back shoot). This grey area could be considered a very intelligent tactic or laming.
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