Dev Game Incident

[Morpheus]

DRAMA

3 PM Less than 3 vs Throw Down the Well Dev

My POV

3:15 PM Rj got asked to delay the game 10 min and and posted that on irc (without asking individually the team mates that are actually playing)

3:25 PM~ Someone joined the server and said they had 4 in the server already

3:30 PM~ We had 4 in the server as well and started clicking in order to proceed

3:38 ~ they don't click and say HULK has to go to the toilet. I decide i go dig in some pizza

3:48 PM They dont have 4 yet and say Blackout PC crashed or smth (windows bug apparently)

3:50 PM~ They switched CK with pwned at the last second and click in. I laugh and give a little smirk. I don't complain or say anything

I don't know exactly when but the server got restarted in order to fix some PL players were showing on f1. Probably around 3:49 i'd say

Early in the game people server was showing some PL to all players and everyone tried to fight off their point. We were having an early lead by this point while EVERYONE was having this PL. They all kept trying but somehow we got the upper advantage and managed to rack off some early DOM points.

After 2 minutes or smth one of them left. Without asking or informing any player they logged in as admin in order to pause or force the vote. By one point they all started to leave and join in order to mess with the auto pause (in my day this was an automatic forfeit). Pretty sure at one point they forced vote ghardhen but it did not work out somehow.

My interpretation

The massive delay was something that coming from admins should have never happened in the first place but w/e's, personally just wanted to play.

Basically we all faced the same conditions in the game and we were pulling ahead. They realized it and stopped from happening by leaving and using their admin logins to stop it. Something that should never happen in the first place.

The arrogance was unbelievable, voting the map while the game is going on, actively throwing the game just because they knew it had to be rescheduled, the forcing of a delay. In my modest opinion it was despicable to the maximum.

Would i have minded a delay? Probably no, while i was captain or in charge of the captaincy work in games, not only have i allowed post-time trades, delayed games, but i never ever tried to forfeit a game by time. However, i wouldn't allow a delay in this scenario since it wasn't their starters missing. RJ should have also asked all players, which he clearly didn't because DEV had to go to bed earlier than usual because he would go up at 4 AM for some stuff. Sportsmanship wasn't in stake here.

In my opinion game should have proceeded since ping issues were far from resolved after the first pause (even before to me). After the first pause everything was resolved for everyone, and they just kept throwing the game in order for it to get replayed. Which it worked. Either way game started and it had to be finished, if a replay was in order would be solved later after all the facts were in the table, and a timed decision was made.

I tried to explain this to the group of captains gathered but i was unable because someone got mad after i spoke calmly and kicked me from the server.

RJ has been an awesome captain but he never dealt with situations like this where friendly admins knit situations in their favor.

Just wanted you guys to know what happened in my point of view. I've been always in favor of justice (as some might have noticed by now), and imo justice did not PREVAIL here. Rj got the short stick of the deal and got overwhelmed. I refuse to participate in such shenanigans and cooked up situations. I write this while i'm waiting for a match that apparently is not going to happen.

No bargain was made and no consequences were dealt for actively throwing/delaying/messing with autopause within a game. This coming from a team that had at least 2 admins is mind blowing to me.

/drama

good league and i enjoyed it until this last piece. I liked the tie breaker feature and i think it actually favors better teams. I'm pretty sure we would have proceeded if it was the old system and we didn't have a team for it. Coverage was better than usual, and i actually enjoyed playing this more than iCTF. It is a shame it doesn't have the same amount of signups. I might write about the flaws on the salaries and how they are exploited, maybe that will give insight how on to fix them.

If further clarification is needed i shall provide.

peace noobs

[blackout\\]

[Morpheus]

[rev]

First of all, the rules clearly state that after all players are clicked in, the other team has two minutes to click in or else you can force a forfeit. From the information you provided, it looked like RJ was showing sportsmanship and didn't enforce this rule even though he had the option. So, the delayed start is moot. I can understand how it might be frustrating or how you might feel inconvenienced, but it certainly isn't an "incident".

A team must have their entire team in the server and clicked in to be eligible to start the timer. Once they have done this, the opposing team has 2 minutes to click in before they forfeit the map.
The timer for map 1 is only eligible to be started from 5 minutes after the match start time stated on the schedule page and must then run uninterrupted for 2 minutes.
The timer for map 2 is eligible to be started from 5 minutes after the map has been switched.
If any member of the team who instigated the timer disconnects from the server, the timer will reset

2nd, rules are in place for server crashes. The same thing happened in our dev match and the admins handled it perfectly per the rules only to be subjected to a shit storm of whining/complaining. When the whole server has 10-20 % PL, this is a "server crash" imo. IE. when the server becomes unplayable and the conditions you're playing in are heavily influenced by abnormal server conditions. Once the server conditions evidenced transpired, the map should have been replayed thus making anything that happened after that moot as well. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure is what happened.

Acts of God
Server Crash

In the event that a server crashes, the server will be reset and the time will be rounded up to the nearest minute.

I personally don't mind Morph and his constant questioning/analyzing of how things are done. I think it's how you improve, and he does bring up intelligent material for debate a lot of the time. However, this logic:

"RJ has been an awesome captain but he never dealt with situations like this where friendly admins knit situations in their favor.

Just wanted you guys to know what happened in my point of view. I've been always in favor of justice (as some might have noticed by now), and imo justice did not PREVAIL here. Rj got the short stick of the deal and got overwhelmed. I refuse to participate in such shenanigans and cooked up situations"

is just plain ridiculous. I've seen it evidenced by numerous people including in my dev match earlier today. I have never seen an admin try and "spin" a questionable situation into their favor. If anything, if there is an admin involved they end up getting fucked just to leave no doubt (ie: Rain in the sniper season when he requested Scott's demo).

I'm tired of people being fucking whining babies and admins putting up with it. Admins put their time in to make this possible, they're not getting paid or receiving any sort of compensation. The primary interaction between players and admins should be players thanking admins..which hardly ever happens.


tl;dr


edit: btw i'm in no way referring to myself as being a part of the admin team. Paco gave me ops and I move people around ts and ban people for breaking pug rules but that's about it. The people I'm referring to are people like PACO, nob, Hulksmash, Monk etc..

[Sauron]

PL for 2 minutes isn't a server crash. Especially when the game is paused for the majority of it.

[rev]

What are you basing this information on Angus? Did you, by chance, have a personal demo that you rewatched? Or maybe you were in the server when the incident happened? no? The point is, with you, it doesn't matter what happens..whatever it is, it's always not in your favor and people out to fuck you by subverting the rules and colluding against you. Therefore, your opinion doesn't matter. I don't care what you have to say.

[clankiller]

[HULKSMASH]

Firstly, I was open about my 'first' dev player being stuck in the snow. (Who BTW, is still less than your 'second' dev player). I asked RJ if it was a problem if we started 10 mins later. He said it wasn't a big deal. I appreciate that RJ showed sportsmanship despite having a rough week himself with missing starters.

But as match time was approaching, it started to seem highly unlikely that pwnage would make it back in those 10 minutes. Better safe than sorry, I started showing CK the maps and positions, etc. So yes, we had four in the server at match time.

After a few minutes we were ready to start with CK and clicked in, but then unfortunately blackout's pc went nuts and he had to restart. This took a while. I apologise. But I can't really help that. (Note: no timers could be called by team RJ as Morpheus himself kept leaving and rejoining server, resetting timer).

Then we had the server issues, where everybody was experiencing 60-80% packet loss. Rummy tried resetting server. It seemed to be OK after that, so once again, we were ready to start.

Somewhere amongst this chaos pwnage arrived home safely and therefore I asked him to join instead of CK. Which I think your captain would have done as well if it the choice was dev vs Hakuna Matata with playoffs at stake. (No disrespect at all meant to CK and thank you very much for being there to step in!).

We started and within I'd say 30 seconds we had the packet loss issues again. Rummy even lagged out completely, although still physically being in server. Rummy then disappeared from TS. As there was evidently a serious problem with ip5 and it was the second time it was happening, I left quickly to see if there were any other servers available we could play on, as in my opinion playing a match with 60% PL is unacceptable to everybody involved. It's not a fair or fun competition playing like that.

There I learned that this problem was occurring on multiple servers and there wasn't an immediate solution available. Because I didn't have an immediate solution, I rejoined server as autopause was about to run out, but we were still missing Rummy. I then went to go look for Rummy on TS, who was talking to PACO about the issues we were having. This then turned into a captain meeting so we could quickly look for the fairest solution for everybody affected by these issues.

You came into this meeting complaining about the late start and how unfair it was that we stalled for pwnage; which had nothing to do with the matter at hand - we were trying to find a solution for the server issue. I assume you were removed for a. not being a captain, b. being disruptive to the discussion. The conclusion we came to with admins and captains? Replay the parts affected. As we had only just begun, we decided on a complete replay -- is it really worth going over demos to see at what second in the first minute the problems started and when exactly rummy lagged out? Surely anyone with common sense would suggest to just restarting a match so it can be played fairly?

We always have and always will try to stay calm when shit hits the fan and find the best and fairest possible solution to everybody involved. Everyone agreed that this was fair. Apparently you didn't. You are completely entitled to your own opinion and apparently thought it was unacceptable to lose an unfairly gained advantage during a packet loss, a lag out, 4v3 and points continuing to count during auto pause. Apparently then you refused to play the next game.

So contrary to your belief, it wasn't the admins but your own temper that sabotaged your match and any chance remaining to reach playoffs.

Honestly, on paper, your team was at an advantage (Viperz, Morph, dev, crux = $3994 vs. Rum, Blackout, pwnage, me = $3762) and if you wouldn't have 'refused' to just restart due to server issues, you could have probably beat us. You had a lot of fragpower and potential. We could have even tried to reschedule if your players had to go to bed. I even asked RJ if he wanted to play the second map at another time. In fact, I would have much rather have played with your normal dev line up (including you) in the game to have a competitive match.

So after only wanting to switch to available at the last minute because you are against a 'bazillion' (3) new maps (that mappers spent a lot of time on creating), your constant complaining about dev matches in general (and even having the nerve to write in your one of your signups you refuse to play them)... you now TRULY outdid yourself this time.

TLDR: We were delayed. Servers got 60%+ PL twice within 5 mins. Two admins on one team (rum+HULKSMASH) tried finding a fair solution with all captains i.e. restarting. Morph didn't like the solution and refused to play. Morpheus puts himself above his teams' needs.

Thanks again to RJ, Viperz, dev and crux, for your understanding and I apologise for the delays in our match. I hope you still enjoyed playing regardless. I honestly think you would have beaten us on gharden at least if Morpheus would have played. I was especially impressed with dev's fragpower. And secretly I was glad we didn't have Viperino with lots of amp runs to go ham on us - I was having nightmares about this:

[dev]

I was under the impression from RJ that you would not reschedule. We actually asked but RJ said "They wont do that" I was already hesitant about playing 45 minutes late as I had to be up really early today. If that was an option that was put forward to us I'm sure we'd have all agreed on that. But I don't speak for morph.
All in all the map was ok, the mood on ts was pretty subdued. I think you rushed into a pretty quick lead that we couldn't counter and it was over after about 2 minutes. Maybe with a bit of positivity we could have come out ok.. Maybe next season!
GL in playoffs

[HULKSMASH]

I was neither asked, nor informed about it being an issue starting later. I'm actually very easy going and also accepted csns request to reschedule match in Week 2 as he would not be there. I for one would rather play a fun game with full lineup than beat a team missing people. Call me crazy.

[Junkyardboy]

There's no one here to blame other than the servers getting lots of packet loss. Everyone got messed up over this and a lot of time got wasted. Let's all take the time to remind ourselves that none of this was intentionally from any team for the servers to lag and if you are truly upset at the series of events that took place(which apparently did happen from morpheas' point of view) the only thing to be upset with is the bad luck from the servers.

Shoutout to PACO to staying on top and resolving all the issues. PACO stressed out so much over this he didn't even want to play in the match this week. Proud of the admins.

Also Morpheas, show a little appreciation to the admin's who let you sign up to this season when they easily could have said no.

That is all i gotta say...stay positive everyone

[Sens]

Boo! So all of our rival matches for playoffs (Hulk dev-Morph, Paco dev- Pete, HulkPacoReg-Rummy) had issues with first pickers not turning up. There's rules against that kind of stuff in football! At least given in 'good faith'.

Maybe it's a grey area with what constitutes a crash - the 3 games going on all had been hit by it. In our match we had someone pause it until the PL finished - it was an easy continuation. Not sure why the other matches struggled with that

[Morpheus]

Rummy played the entire first minute (when the first pause was issued) and left because he couldn't get to the point. I actually have a POV of me killing him every 7/15 seconds. He pretty much gave up because of the "lag". He mixed the issues and basically trowed the game in order for it to be replayed. I don't admit such things, personally i call it being sissy. I've been screwed many times by lag and never once did i complained (might have mentioned) but shit happens, usually to both sides. Take it like a man and move on.

A decision was made between captains where Rickjames did not even have information from us or the match because he was not present. Neither could he defend or speak to the case itself. I tried to stand up to my team but i was denied such right or privilege. So basically besides a rush decision being made, there was not a clear presentation from both sides of the story.

GU/OW staff has been amazing so far in order to separate admins from their own games, which i think is remarkable. PACO usually does this, because he knows everyone has a different view. I was denied the possibility to defend my team because i was not a captain, but rummy was allowed when he is not a captain himself and to aggravate he was an admin and a player of the team in question.

I have said this many times before, i agree with almost every decision made on GU/OW, because PACO with all his flaws is a guy that can take a step back and look at the problem in a way most cannot. This was a first that i can remember, but again he did not have all the facts, because i was denied to stand up for my team.

It wasn't fair at all in my POV because we had an important advantage that specially in my case would guarantee a 15 sdom points for sure. Killed rummy for belt, got all vials, got the pads exactly when rummy was going for them, etc.

@jyb First of all maplist was presented and i changed my availability to Partial but it was Full the entire time. It is not my fault information is not presented immediately and within time, but rather spread out and pretty much separated. I did not know the new maps were as TB only and not in playoffs, otherwise i would have not changed to MERC. Honestly, a league struggling to get players should not even have a veto between captains in that regard. I personally find it backwards, but i understand.

@rev Don't make me babble, because i know for a fact admins can twist things in their favor, and i've witnessed that some times. Lets not go through that path. PACO/HULKSMASH (1 time) reversed or corrected most situations though.

Personally, UT99 is an important step to me and i feel sorry for Rickjames. We were stolen the opportunity to fight, but i have principles that i will not back away from.

PS: About the autopause. No you are stating facts all wrong. Auto pause worked fine, no bugs. You guys clearly abused it and i can provide evidence if needed

[HULKSMASH]

Your mind works in mysterious ways, let's keep it at that.

It's time to look into the mirror and realise it was your 'principles' cost you the game, you HAD the opportunity to fight. And fight fairly. You didn't use it.

Im very happy for you that you managed to teleport and warp less than rummy for the less than 120 seconds we ended up playing and didn't completely lag out like he did.

If you honestly think he didn't warp and/or completely lag out (just because you didn't experience as severe a lag as someone else) ...Then surely it was all some evil plot to restart so that rummy could tag point??? And the bad solution offered by all these evil admins (who probably even secretly packeted their own match just so they could win and delay everything on purpose) is unfair and was just done for the sole purpose of bringing down the morale of the mighty Morpheus with principles (tm) ... You really should just probably go back to attempting to play counter strike.

[Morpheus]

So are you telling me someone you can throw the game and intentionally not play to get it rescheduled but i cannot? Because that is exactly what happened. There was no agreement, no questions were asked, no nothing. We replayed because the admins on the exact same team say it is the fair thing to do. Or we tell the team of captains OUR side of the story without any other input and lets all make a decision based ONLY on that.

I throw facts, none were refuted so far. What is the justification? I only see the "your attitude" "you didn't fight". Why was only a side listened to? Why was there no checking of both sides? Why are you allowed to get a full replay without consequences?

The moment the game was decided to get replayed, we are getting screwed. As simple as that. Simple logic that so far has received no arguments to refute it

So basically you are also telling me it was just a major coincidence that the stall over 20 minutes and replacement of a better dev player at the very last second you decide to click was a major coincidence? Even if it was, in a impartial perspective it was reasonable to think you made the stall in purpose. Stalling techniques used in the past. Don't try to twist the obvious facts. I made sure people knew what happened and said it was actually very lame coming from admins, i did not contest weather it was "legal" or not (even though probably isn't). Story lies somewhere else.

ps: somwhat tired and some engrish might surface

[Sauron]

Rummy has been having lag issues lately. When no one else was having any issues, he was warping pretty bad the other day. The lag issues he experienced and the lag everyone experienced could easily be independent of each other (could have been partially concurrent as well).

And CK, I was referring to our dev match, not yours, with that statement.

[kud]

morph did you not play because the map was restarted after 2-3 minutes?

[clankiller]

[clankiller]

[rev]

[Morpheus]

[csnafk]

the topics on this forum are becoming headache worthy to comprehend sometimes