Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby PACO » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 pm

DREW-TANg wrote:
PACO wrote:
phpBB [video]


So not even the X-axis is safe, got it.

Correct. As evidenced by the video, it's a complete disaster.

InfamousRaider wrote:I'm actually curious what this overlay would look like for UT99. A lot of people questioned newnets demo recording accuracy. With shadow play more common now we could really put this to the test.

That is actually a good idea and something that I would personally pursue if the game was more active. I have always questioned newnet replication in demos however whatever discrepancies are found would likely be minor compared to the current spectator/serverside UT4 demos.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:09 pm

InfamousRaider wrote:
PACO wrote:video

I'm actually curious what this overlay would look like for UT99. A lot of people questioned newnets demo recording accuracy. With shadow play more common now we could really put this to the test.

u callin me a liar faget?
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:10 pm

PACO wrote:
DREW-TANg wrote:
PACO wrote:
phpBB [video]


So not even the X-axis is safe, got it.

Correct. As evidenced by the video, it's a complete disaster.

InfamousRaider wrote:I'm actually curious what this overlay would look like for UT99. A lot of people questioned newnets demo recording accuracy. With shadow play more common now we could really put this to the test.

That is actually a good idea and something that I would personally pursue if the game was more active. I have always questioned newnet replication in demos however whatever discrepancies are found would likely be minor compared to the current spectator/serverside UT4 demos.

you can compare a ut99 demo on overlay all day long versus ut4, but it will never, ever make their netcode the same. ever.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby PACO » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:12 pm

BUDDY wrote:
PACO wrote:
DREW-TANg wrote:
So not even the X-axis is safe, got it.

Correct. As evidenced by the video, it's a complete disaster.

InfamousRaider wrote:I'm actually curious what this overlay would look like for UT99. A lot of people questioned newnets demo recording accuracy. With shadow play more common now we could really put this to the test.

That is actually a good idea and something that I would personally pursue if the game was more active. I have always questioned newnet replication in demos however whatever discrepancies are found would likely be minor compared to the current spectator/serverside UT4 demos.

you can compare a ut99 demo on overlay all day long versus ut4, but it will never, ever make their netcode the same. ever.

I don't think anyone was suggesting comparing the two. More for verifying the integrity of 99 demos that are put under a microscope.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby rev » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:57 pm

InfamousRaider wrote:I'm actually curious what this overlay would look like for UT99. A lot of people questioned newnets demo recording accuracy. With shadow play more common now we could really put this to the test.

That is actually a good idea and something that I would personally pursue if the game was more active. I have always questioned newnet replication in demos however whatever discrepancies are found would likely be minor compared to the current spectator/serverside UT4 demos.[/quote]
you can compare a ut99 demo on overlay all day long versus ut4, but it will never, ever make their netcode the same. ever.[/quote]
I don't think anyone was suggesting comparing the two. More for verifying the integrity of 99 demos that are put under a microscope.[/quote]

#REBANFALLACY2015
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:51 am

No wonder the video is so off, you use two completely different starting points for it.

Image

Here's the blended version.

Image

Here's the point in the demo rec you use as a splicing point.

Image

I believe this is approximately the starting point you use for the shadow play half of the splice.

I went back and looked at the times for each sequence and they seem roughly the same, honestly this issue could easily be something that happened during the encoding phase. If one video was encoded improperly and inadvertently sped up or slowed down it would make a large enough discrepancy to where if they were "synced" together it would be off. I personally lined up the actors in the scene (if you go back to my original post you see that I tried to line up the bots actions / movements / something tangible and compared the x-hairs that way) to test the position of the crosshair in one clip as opposed to the other one. Another reason why the synced video is so different is that the shadow play recording is at a higher field of view. Again, go back to my original images and it's very readily apparent. You could have synced the exact same gameplay at two different F.O.V.s and still had a problem making them appear to align properly.

First, I don't think anybody has said to wit that the replay system has unerring accuracy. Everyone knows that there's a "crouch" bug that's easy to encounter that makes the viewpoint seem lower than it is. Second, it's very important to note that the demo or replay system processes, parses and distributes information the same way as the engine does. It records the x / y position of the crosshair and the movement of actors in relation to it from the master engine located at the server. When your x / y crosshair coordinates line up with an actor and you fire that's a hit. In theory this means that even though the exact view the player experiences won't be apparent, the view that the engine takes into account does. If the demo spectator system was completely flawed and broken it would essentially mean that the game was unplayable and that there is an implicit problem in the engine itself because the replay view is what the server "sees" during a game. Nothing would ever line up and nobody could ever land any shots because of how outrageously out of whack the game's engine would be. It's funny because even in your fundamentally flawed videos they do actually sync up nearly perfectly when the sniper bullet is fired.

Ultimately though aimbots don't behave in "human" manners, they hook into the engine and use that information to instantly process the fastest angle to a target based on the cheater's preferences. If the engine logs linear player input that happens to move at the same speed as an actor that's exactly what it will show, I find that information a lot more pressing than what the client sees. As we have access to the developers we can find out from the horse's mouth if the information presented to a replay viewer is an accurate representation of what the server registers.

@Rev Here's where cheats come into play. Typically with an aimbot the crosshair moves to a spot on the enemy player's skeletal mesh and "locks" there for a brief period of time. Whatever movement the opponent player makes the aimbot is going to follow exactly because it's following the movement as it's being placed into the engine. When you see people complain that the bots in single player mode are way too good at tracking weapons this is why - people see and react to an opponent's movement but the bots are being relayed the information instantaneously from the engine can react to it just as quickly. Human beings don't work that way, you can predict to a certain extent but you have to be able to use your spatial reasoning and see where your opponent is moving to continue aiming. In order to recreate these shots you would have to snap towards a target and then upon reaching a certain spot of your choosing relative to that target, would have to slow down your mouse to match the exact same speed of the enemy in a single fluid motion. Not only that but in that first clip you would have to flick towards them aiming at their hip and when you reach their hip you would then have to perfectly decelerate your mouse to match the opponents movement speed. Upon decelerating to their exact speed so that you could continue tracking the pin point precise location you want you would then have to track your mouse in such a way as to continue following them perfectly while drawing a perfect straight line downwards to the hip again as the model is falling from the sky. First and foremost it's almost downright impossible to draw a perfect straight line with a mouse, much less while you're tracking a moving object in a perfect manner. Imagine you had to draw a perfect straight line downward while I was moving your mouse pad to the right fairly quickly. That's what linear aiming means - a computer program is only concerned with plotting the fastest point to a target, it doesn't know that it shouldn't do so in a perfectly straight line because it's humanly impossible. Aimbots also have certain features such as being able to specify what part of the body you want to aim at, if you want to aim at the nearest target, the target with the lowest health, the "aim angle" you want to set (I.E. whenever you get your crosshair within 5 degrees x / y of your target it's going to take over for you), and many more.

Another problem is that the replay view actually was used the clip at the end - but the rest of the clips were made via a spectator's live stream. In fact the clip that used the built replay system was originally captured by a spectator with shadow play. Ultimately it was edited to that fashion by a notable player whose video editing skills are as formidable as his flak cannon but who used the replay system as his source. In both versions of said clip however the same linear and mechanical aim was exhibited.

phpBB [video]


Here's a shadow play recorded by novaz and spectated / shadow played by myself recently. They sync up extremely well. Even if the demo/replay system was inherently flawed and utterly broken (which again will be verified via code) it appears as though the spectator system records information with a very high accuracy.

Something more important to consider is the fact that in the clips which many find questionable the player is moving in more or less a straight line, as opposed to the comparison video which shows a player making numerous and successive wall dodges and ground slides. When you're trying to scientifically recreate an event you want to have as many of the same circumstances as you originally had (i.e. the control) in order to eliminate the most potential confounding variables. I feel like someone walking in a straight line and snapping / locking onto rigid points of space on an enemy model controlled by a human for prolonged periods of time (in F.P.S. standards at least) and recorded by a spectator using shadow play is not dismissed by said player making exaggerated movements while mouse aiming at a bot that is standing completely still and then personally encoding that replay. It's something akin to finding out that a kite with a key tied to it will attract lightning, then going outside on a beautiful summer day to recreate that event.

I also find it funny that another important part of the clip - reacting to blimpo going up a lift as if he's able to shoot him through a wall - has not been addressed.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby exixt » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:47 am

lmao is this real life
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby Steel » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:19 am

While the spectator tracking is bizarre, I feel it can barely be used as evidence given the fact that the sniper shot that followed the combo was nowhere close to the player (likely caused by the tickrate of 10 that epic forces on their hubs).
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:06 pm

I'm not sure why people are making fun of the whole cheating thing in the community. This is pretty serious considering we may possibly have cheaters in the #ut4pugs community. With no anti cheat or reliable demo Rec on all hubs, it's pretty impossible to detect any of this, so count me out of any tournament or any planning of tournaments.

Moving on...

Gs3k and I made a video on spectating using shadow play. As you can see, both line up pretty well. Spectating is actually pretty good in this game, compared to the demo recordings.

This can also be used for epic, showing them some of the bugs involved with the demo playback. Hopefully in the future we can be provided with top of the line replay features, although nothing will ever be perfect.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:46 pm

Not gonna lie, definitely didn't read that wall of death from GNUB. Nvz, no one cares if you don't play, you really sound like a butthurt school girl, crying about things you can't even prove or determine at this point.

This is why I took full shadowplays for the last show match, you twerps still think it's viable to believe everything you see via spec or demo.

I love how you guys think with the start of this game that everyone who was already previously good, downloaded cheats to compete in a pre-alpha with zero return of investment. Brilliant logic.

Please - tell me more.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby nvz » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:01 pm

RoOkIe wrote:Not gonna lie, definitely didn't read that wall of death from GNUB. Nvz, no one cares if you don't play, you really sound like a butthurt school girl, crying about things you can't even prove or determine at this point.

This is why I took full shadowplays for the last show match, you twerps still think it's viable to believe everything you see via spec or demo.

I love how you guys think with the start of this game that everyone who was already previously good, downloaded cheats to compete in a pre-alpha with zero return of investment. Brilliant logic.

Please - tell me more.



With the poor development of the core game play of the game, after a year and a half, epic still doesn't have things right. I spent probably 120 hours testing the game and playing it for fun. After seeing so many problems(over powered weapons, poor net code, bad translocator etc.) I probably have the right to cry like a school girl like chicken on the forums and irc (sorry man had to get some comparison). Epic continues to cater the gameplay towards casual players, which upsets me a lot.

I'm sorry if I sound like a little bitch, but I definitley will continue to be paranoid along with a few other players about the whole cheating thing. I'm sure once anti cheat and demorec gets set into stone we can forget about this.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:22 pm

nvz wrote:
RoOkIe wrote:Not gonna lie, definitely didn't read that wall of death from GNUB. Nvz, no one cares if you don't play, you really sound like a butthurt school girl, crying about things you can't even prove or determine at this point.

This is why I took full shadowplays for the last show match, you twerps still think it's viable to believe everything you see via spec or demo.

I love how you guys think with the start of this game that everyone who was already previously good, downloaded cheats to compete in a pre-alpha with zero return of investment. Brilliant logic.

Please - tell me more.



With the poor development of the core game play of the game, after a year and a half, epic still doesn't have things right. I spent probably 120 hours testing the game and playing it for fun. After seeing so many problems(over powered weapons, poor net code, bad translocator etc.) I probably have the right to cry like a school girl like chicken on the forums and irc (sorry man had to get some comparison). Epic continues to cater the gameplay towards casual players, which upsets me a lot.

I'm sorry if I sound like a little bitch, but I definitley will continue to be paranoid along with a few other players about the whole cheating thing. I'm sure once anti cheat and demorec gets set into stone we can forget about this.


Why do you think Epic would ever cater to us? We are the minority. They will continue to make things flashy, over the top, over powered and etc because that's what draws more people in, not hardcore barebones functionality that elitist want from previous UT games. If you don't like it, don't play.

You don't deserve to cry and whine any more than the next guy. We are all equal voices, no ones is more important than the other, play time is irrelevant.

And as PACO mentioned, even with anti cheat and demos and better spec system, cheating will still be a point of discussion. It will never end. Buck up cowboy.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby KillEmAll » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:00 pm

Hiya RoOkie!!!!!
Been a long time, glad to see your still keeping things interesting. :lol:
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby reflex » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:19 pm

KillEmAll wrote:Hiya RoOkie!!!!!
Been a long time, glad to see your still keeping things interesting. :lol:


On an unrelated note - we had an impromptu TAM pug the other night (been months since the last one) and everyone panicked about not having a server... only to find out the server you so graciously donated to us was still up and running.

You da real MVP, KEA. 8-)
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:54 pm

KillEmAll wrote:Hiya RoOkie!!!!!
Been a long time, glad to see your still keeping things interesting. :lol:


Hey KEA :).

Wouldn't say this is how I want to keep things interesting but sometimes you're just dealt a certain hand.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby beck » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:58 pm

And sometimes the deck is rigged.

Not implying, just gotta relight the fire. Ya'll are too boring.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby pb » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:27 pm

video removed - let's not advertise cheats (n0b)

Here's an actual shadow-played aimbot. It shows sticky aiming a few times throughout, that is the cheater's cross-hair is free, though locks on once in that box. As usual the guy himself is a shitty player so it's not a great comparison. You can play it in slow motion to see the shoulder bone lock on. I don't really have an opinion one way or another on the rookie thing aside from witch hunts generally being ridiculous. He's always been a good guy and deserves the benefit of the doubt. I've also played a lot of pugs (including with rookie) at this point and never once had the suspicion that someone was cheating.

That being said what stuck out as weird in the rookie video is crosshair locking onto what looks like the same bone/area on the model once he aims inside where that box would be in the aimbot video. This is independent of any sync issues with demos / spec / whatever. What I'd be most curious about is if other low sens players have the same type of locked on mouse movement on occasion, it could just be a thing that happens sometimes with low sens and enough samples. The accusers are nuts to condemn him but the defenders are also in error thinking the shoulder lock isn't weird. I can't track people in this game at all so I'm not a good judge, the only way I can hit people is waiting for them to cross my x-hair. The jittry low tick demos shouldn't really matter in this aspect.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby BUDDY » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:11 pm

haha sorry paco. that was a drunk at the bar post x 2
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby legionz » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:23 pm

pb wrote:What I'd be most curious about is if other low sens players have the same type of locked on mouse movement on occasion, it could just be a thing that happens sometimes with low sens and enough samples.
I've been wondering the same thing.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:21 pm

legionz wrote:
pb wrote:What I'd be most curious about is if other low sens players have the same type of locked on mouse movement on occasion, it could just be a thing that happens sometimes with low sens and enough samples.
I've been wondering the same thing.


GS3k wrote:What would sway me is if Rookie could recreate smooth aim that could stand the scrutiny of a slow motion breakdown and show where a spectator sees the linear aiming that's indicative of an external program.
exixt wrote:lmao is this real life
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:22 pm

pb wrote:The jittry low tick demos shouldn't really matter in this aspect.


It wasn't originally a jittery low tick demo pb. Someone was spectating him and saw a blatant lock on, it just happened to show up in the demo rec as well when another player looked it up.
exixt wrote:lmao is this real life
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby finalzje » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:32 pm

What a ridiculous witchhunt, i've encountered such "Blatant lock ons" in countless recordings of myself playing fps games. Grow up pal.
Keep doing what you're doing rookie.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby m3ss » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:13 pm

I feel like I'm being trolled. I hope I'm being trolled? :OWgrinsgasm:
Follow me on social media through the links below.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:27 pm

GS3k wrote:
pb wrote:The jittry low tick demos shouldn't really matter in this aspect.


It wasn't originally a jittery low tick demo pb. Someone was spectating him and saw a blatant lock on, it just happened to show up in the demo rec as well when another player looked it up.


You're a blatant dumbass. Numb is a blatant salty noob.

Image

I don't give a damn what would sway your twisted mind one way or the other. You have a long history of being this kind of troll, you'll never change. You've accused countless other top players, similarly on one shred of an oddity. Keep it up :OWgrinsgasm: :OWgrinsgasm:
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby pb » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:00 pm

Well it's not exactly blatent, but you'd have to be pretty dense to not admit those shots look sketchy when cherry picked. The question is if its normal or not to occasionally produce mouse movement like that, which is with definitely within the realm of possibility.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:11 pm

pb wrote:Well it's not exactly blatent, but you'd have to be pretty dense to not admit those shots look sketchy when cherry picked. The question is if its normal or not to occasionally produce mouse movement like that, which is with definitely within the realm of possibility.


Exactly, not only did that one instance get cherry picked and extrapolated into the stars in a different universe, they also fail to mention that the whole game before and after that one instance is completely 'back to normal'. Again, no logic, no motive, just trolls thinking they're detectives. :OWgrinsgasm:
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby n0b » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:37 pm

GS3k wrote:Misinformed gibberish.

PACO wrote:The demo pov is overlayed on top of the shadowplay pov. In the first example it is synced up by the shot.

There's nothing wrong with the FOV or syncing on PACO's video. No matter how the clips are synced, there's always going to be inaccuracies between the client and server. Whether it's the crosshair, player positioning, deaths, etc.. pick your poison. Server side demos have always been this way.

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]


I ended up matching these clips up by the audio, but towards the end it appears to be a couple frames off. I'd wager it's a byproduct of demo replication, but it's still clearly inaccurate even if it was perfect. I should also note that the deaths were 200ms apart. That's a pretty significant delay.

This holds true for your spectator example:

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]


I will admit the crosshair and deaths are fairly accurate, but it's definitely not perfect. The player models on the other hand are clearly in different positions.

I don't know what you're responding to about cheats, but 'testing' them doesn't make you an expert.

As far as the hackusations go..

GS3k wrote:I also find it funny that another important part of the clip - reacting to blimpo going up a lift as if he's able to shoot him through a wall - has not been addressed.

He's visible from the spectator view, so he was probably spotted taking the bouncer. I'm sure his teammates also called it out. He then looked at the armor and grabbed it. What's wrong with that?

GS3k wrote:
legionz wrote:
pb wrote:What I'd be most curious about is if other low sens players have the same type of locked on mouse movement on occasion, it could just be a thing that happens sometimes with low sens and enough samples.
I've been wondering the same thing.

All the time. Maybe Fallacy could give his input on it. ;)
In all seriousness, reflex was probably in a completely different spot from rookie's POV and doesn't "lock" onto anything. If the claim is that an aimbot was activated while turning the corner, it would have gone straight to cookie anyway.

None of the clips posted here are conclusive or should be considered suspicious. They're just cherry picked from who knows how many demos/recordings. Everyone will have questionable moments when watching with a wallhack or slowed down, given enough footage. These don't qualify.
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby Sonic|^ » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:15 pm

Stop making sense n0b.
They Don’t Think It Be Like It Is, But It Do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN43sCyEanA
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby GS3k » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:27 pm

n0b wrote:
GS3k wrote:Misinformed gibberish.

There's nothing wrong with the FOV or syncing on PACO's video.


Image
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Image
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I'd also like to point out that you're not taking into account ping or the fact that client side shadow plays run at a sultry sixty frames a second. I don't know what server he tested this on but that could be your 200 milliseconds. There's something to be said for due diligence.

nob wrote:He's visible from the spectator view, so he was probably spotted taking the bouncer. I'm sure his teammates also called it out. He then looked at the armor and grabbed it. What's wrong with that?


I wasn't even the one to point this out - it was a highly respected European player who played for a top sponsored team (think Fnatic, SK) in private messages - he noted that not only does he snap to where blimpo is through the wall, he also jumps to get a peek shot at him. If he was looking up to the armor he wouldn't have had to jump, he also would have used his pixel precise snap aim to look straight at the armor instead of stopping at blimpo's (non-visible) player model. The jump is the part I can't explain - I even said myself he could just say that he was checking the armor.

nob wrote:In all seriousness, reflex was probably in a completely different spot from rookie's POV and doesn't "lock" onto anything. If the claim is that an aimbot was activated while turning the corner, it would have gone straight to cookie anyway.


You would see cookie and react to him, then maybe if you saw reflex out of the corner of your eye you would try to aim at him. An aimbot would snap to the closest target depending on the configuration.

That's a wall Sonic!
exixt wrote:lmao is this real life
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Re: Comparison of DemoRec POV vs Shadowplay POV

Postby RoOkIe » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:01 am

The one thing I will say about you GS3K is that you're persistent, even though you're completely jaded/biased in your opinions and using absolute garbage for evidence, you sure love to come back and make yourself look even more stupid. Do you realize that 99% of people in this thread think you're blabbing and are true to form of your old troll hackusations self.

Please continue.
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